Mr. Ruby.

I am not sure. Because I made so many trips there. I was down there about seven or eight times.

Mr. Griffin.

Was it before you went to Los Angeles to see Mike Shore?

Mr. Ruby.

No; I think I made it on the way back. I went to Los Angeles first, the first trip, and then on the way back I went to Dallas.

Mr. Griffin.

How much time did you spend with Jack on this first visit?

Mr. Ruby.

Well, they only let you talk about 20 minutes or a half hour at the most.

Mr. Griffin.

When is the last time you have seen him?

Mr. Ruby.

The last time I saw him was--I was there at the verdict, you know.

Mr. Griffin.

Have you seen him since the verdict?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes, oh, yes; I stayed there for at least several days, anyhow, and I saw him every day at least once.

Mr. Griffin.

Have you seen him since then?

Mr. Ruby.

No, no; since I came back, since that trip, I haven't been back.

Mr. Griffin.

All right. Did you notice any change in your brother's mental and physical condition between the first time that you saw him in Dallas and the last time that you saw him in Dallas?

Mr. Ruby.

Oh, yes; definitely. Physically he lost about 30 pounds, and you know, his face was drawn and his eyes sunken, and in addition to that he was despondent, of course, and you couldn't--he would have to repeat questions or ask questions from him more than once to get a reply. It just didn't seem to register all the time.
Even Belli mentioned that he couldn't get across to Jack all the time, and Burleson mentioned to me several times that Jack is off his rocker. This was, you know----

Mr. Griffin.

Was this after the verdict or before?

Mr. Ruby.

No; before. He says, "Your brother is off his rocker. He has got himself involved with all the Jews all over the world and he doesn't know what he is talking about," but my brother did know what he was talking about. It was Burleson who didn't understand. Because in order to understand--it is a Jewish problem--and most Jews would understand it.
Burleson, not being familiar with this, it just went over his head. I didn't even think of it then but he kept telling me, "Your brother has got himself all mixed ,up with all the Jews all over the world and he is off his rocker." That was the statement he made several times to too.

Mr. Griffin.

I would like to explore this with you at some length if you don't mind.

Mr. Ruby.

That is why I brought this with me. I have all of this in here.

Mr. Griffin.

Let me try to ask you some questions first and then we will get into the papers that you have brought. You say there was a disagreement, that you disagreed with Burleson's appraisal of your brother's involvement with the Jewish question.

Mr. Ruby.

He couldn't explain it. So, really, I didn't understand it myself. I didn't know what he was talking about at the time.

Mr. Griffin.

You subsequently did come to learn what he was talking about, I take it?

Mr. Ruby.

Yes; it wasn't until somebody brought it to my attention, really.

Mr. Griffin.

What was brought to your attention--what particular facts?

Mr. Ruby.

Well, the fact it seemed that Jack in digging down into his past, he had an obsession about the Jewish people, and he always went out of his way to show people that Jews are not bad people, you know, because you know they have been persecuted over the years, and that is one of the reasons he brought the policemen at the station sandwiches and went out of his way to bring them cheesecakes and he was in debt to me for thousands of dollars, yet he never sent me any money but he always had money to give more or less or lend to these other people, almost all non-Jews to show them that a Jew would help them out.
A policeman became a father and was short on money, he would lend him a couple of hundred, never got it back, never got anything back.
Another friend he ran into needed a car to get a job--lent him a few hundred.